Recruiting For Offense
- Thread starter Piratz
- Start date
You can teach defense but guys with offensive skills and moxy are great to have on your team.
I posted this clip a week or 2 ago and questioned if Sha shared this belief. It's a no-brainer in today's game.
Danny has mentioned his progression many times, most recently in his book. He always considered himself a defense and rebounding coach and he had success at Wagner and Rhode Island that way. But he came to the realization that it will only lead you so far. To raise your team's ceiling and to be able to compete at the top levels of the sport, offensive ability is paramount. You still need to be sound defensively and rebound well but its far easier to take players with offensive skills, shooting ability, and IQ and get them to play defense than the other way around.
No matter what sport we are talking about, I want a team who can beat you in multiple ways. A team versatile enough to win no matter what type of game they find themselves in. A team that can outscore you and win a game in the 80s/90s or in a low possession battle in the 60s. If an opponent takes away one aspect of your game, you beat them with another aspect. One-dimensional teams can be shutdown and forced to do things they are not good at.
Danny has mentioned his progression many times, most recently in his book. He always considered himself a defense and rebounding coach and he had success at Wagner and Rhode Island that way. But he came to the realization that it will only lead you so far. To raise your team's ceiling and to be able to compete at the top levels of the sport, offensive ability is paramount. You still need to be sound defensively and rebound well but its far easier to take players with offensive skills, shooting ability, and IQ and get them to play defense than the other way around.
No matter what sport we are talking about, I want a team who can beat you in multiple ways. A team versatile enough to win no matter what type of game they find themselves in. A team that can outscore you and win a game in the 80s/90s or in a low possession battle in the 60s. If an opponent takes away one aspect of your game, you beat them with another aspect. One-dimensional teams can be shutdown and forced to do things they are not good at.
That most likely costs 3 times as much. So there goes more than 1/3 of your budget.
If you are going to put all your eggs into that basket, it better work out with no issues.
And god forbid that player gets hurt, then what?
We’re going to have to make decisions like that to keep players like Clark and Hines.
We still have an NIL problem. The rev sharing gets us to NCAAT Bubble budget.
We still have an NIL problem. The rev sharing gets us to NCAAT Bubble budget.
I’m going to be in the minority on this issue, I believe we have some guys who can provide offense in Clark, Hines, McCray, Simpkins. I’m an eternal optimist but truly believe our team will be very dangerous come March. I give Sha a lot of credit for putting this team together with the money he had available. The story has not been completely written yet on this season. Lots of bumps in the road, good defenses can manufacture points quickly. Villanova game is big, we have something to prove kind of night.
That's a decision for Sha and how he wants to construct his roster. Obviously, we know he prefers his depth, but his best year here saw a team with little to no depth. Kadary stayed healthy and we all know the rest. He has to find a way to retain Clark, Simpkins, and Hines. Let those three play another year for him and another year together. At some point, we have to retain our best players. All three will command large price tags. I imagine Hines will command far and away the most. The school needs to do everything in its power to find Sha the money to keep them here.
With that said, will Sha want to unload the majority of his budget on three players and forego his depth recipe? If you look at the contributors he's bringing off of the bench, it's not like any of them commanded large price tags. Hell, the majority of our starters didn't cost an arm and a leg. Last year, he didn't have anybody worthy of bringing back other than Coleman. This year, he has some real pieces. Let's see if he and the school can do what needs to be done to stabilize this program.
Sha needs to get over the BET hump and win a game or two...or day I say three this year. If we can't get the necessary wins to get ourselves back onto the right side of the bubble, then he'll have no choice but to pull off a miracle at the Garden where he is currently 0-3 as our head coach.
2023: lost to DePaul 66-65
2024: lost to St. John's 91-72 (absolutely needed this one)
2025: lost to Villanova 67-55
Looking forward to the endless George Kurtz threads in the offseason….
I get why Sha wants guys who share his defensive mentality, but I would like to see him try the approach of recruiting offensive talent (or even guys who can just shoot and offer little more) and betting on himself to coach up their defense. He likely won't ever get that team to be elite defensively, but if they can score reliably then all the really need to be on the other side is reliable to good.
If we spent 6M this year we are going to need 10M to make an improvement. Budd, hines and TJ all will want a raise to start
We’ve got the 13th best defense in the country, 2nd in BE. But it’s only gotten us 6-6 in a weak league bc the other side is too bad.
Will may need to start adjusting our thinking a bit. This is a track record.
Will may need to start adjusting our thinking a bit. This is a track record.
On the surface 10M sounds crazy, but it's probably true.
Minority view but despite obvious flaws in game management, Sha has done well given what he has to work with. Nobody we have is a high major starter, except possibly Clark. Not a knock on the squad. They’re playing relatively well consistent with their skill set. They’re basically a team of solid glue guys and off the bench sparks. They punch above their weight at times but a fourth place finish is their ceiling. That’s what we have to work with until we can afford at least one guy who can operate at the next talent level.
Agreed but the offensive system needs improvement. It’s too slow and inefficient. The sets are good, but it takes forever to get going and results in too many mid-range shots, too much dribbling, no post-touches, poor spacing, and too many turnovers.
The other problem is besides 3-point shooting is we are one of the smallest lineups in Div 1 hoops, We really don't have more than 1 big at a time on the floor. Why? If the guy playing the 4 spot can't hit 3's or rebound, why not go bigger to help with the boards? We essentially play 4 guards and a center, that would be fine if the 4 guards could all make 2 and 3's. That is not the reality with this team.
My biggest gripe is the speed bc it’s stalling and wasted time.
But this goes back to what we discussed last year. He WANTS a deep team that he can play physical pressure defense and then the attacking offense based on handoffs and rolls and drives without the outside shot. Look at his background. So he’s built rosters with that in mind and doesn’t want to cater spend to shooters who won’t play that way. It’s limiting.
The players are better than last year and you see the major difference. From that disaster to .500 BE team/NCAAT Bubble. But it’s similar structure an approach.
@shu67 was right and I was wrong earlier this year when I thought the offense and shooting % would be better bc we clearly had more skilled players. It’s still bottom level and very bad.
There is a kid in NY Section 1 about to break the region mark for scoring like up there with Elton Brand a 6'2" ish shooter...right now going to division II school but you know in portal era this guy can be a piece somewhere in the future
I think shooting has bene obvious issue for years. I mean for this past decade I don't think we have ever had a great shooter other than Powell and I can argue Powell is more scorer than sharpshooter, but to be fair he shot at a super high rate and was efficient enough to win us games.
I do think it's a limiting frustration for the potential each game and season. Personally I also am not a fan of our rebounding even if someone like Payne has been decent, but I've seen so many second chance points and I don't feel it's from lack of size. I see many opposing players just be unguarded from a box out.
I feel if this team is going to suck shooting wise, at least be better fundamentally sound. We are also comitting turnovers consistently.
I do think it's a limiting frustration for the potential each game and season. Personally I also am not a fan of our rebounding even if someone like Payne has been decent, but I've seen so many second chance points and I don't feel it's from lack of size. I see many opposing players just be unguarded from a box out.
I feel if this team is going to suck shooting wise, at least be better fundamentally sound. We are also comitting turnovers consistently.
You think Hines comes back after the way Sha uses him or lackthereof?
Going to be questionable. He might love Shaheen but personally he may feel the need to go to a bigger program with more exposure.
I suspect -- with no substantive evidence whatsoever -- that Seton Hall did not spend $6 million on this roster. I know there was a theoretical $6 million budgeted for this season, but we do know that until the revenue share settlement passed, Holloway was not free to commit that money. I'm sure we dropped a good chunk at the end of Hines, but that is the only thing that even makes me think we got near $6 million in actual expenditures.
And I hope I'm right, because if this roster is truly representative of a $6 million payroll, and that is our payroll ceiling, Seton Hall will have a hard time ever being much better than they are this year: pretty good, but not likely to do much in March.
Hines is underused, and I’ve been saying he should start and play max minutes from game 1, but it’s not like Payne is some stiff. He’s been really good too.
Better begin to play Hines more minutes if you want to keep him. And then use him in the post more. Although Hines does not establish position well and often is used just to set high picks.
Hines has not looked the same after his concussion or whatever ailment he had. Could be conditioning based on the subjective eye test.
Still a hell of a lot better than what happened last year. Maybe expecting a jump to the NCAA's was too much to expect the year after that. Let's hope we continue to make improvement.
I agree. I think Hines is 2 years away. I wouldn't break the bank for Hines or Clark. I think Sha needs to be in win now mode and I don't think either of them are the piece that gets us over the hump. Marquette and Creighton have been solid as long as their coaches have been there. Odd that their both down this year but with their money I expect them to rebound next year. I also don't see Nova, SJU, and UConn going anywhere. Somehow we need to be prepared for a much stronger big east and I'm not excited about those on this thread talking like we need this guy or that guy from this years roster back. If they want to come back at a good value, great. If they want big time upgrades in pay, good luck thanks for your year of service.
I have been thinking the same exact thing.
Based on rumors the NIL for top players on the team and then assuming there was hierarchy of who got paid what below that tier, I don’t see how it adds up to $6m.
And remember Hines was a very late addition at the top of that pay scale, if for some reason he didn’t come to the Hall, I think you are no where close to $6m.
More importantly, how much money directed from Onward Setonia into Pirate Blue made up the revenue sharing total for NIL. If we end up with donor fatigue (and that will become a thing) how much actual revenue sharing $$ will Seton Hall take off their bottom line?
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And Slick Rick says BE teams need to be at $9-$11M. One area he’s not short on…
And who could blame him? Getting ridiculous.
Can we pay/afford $1 million each for Clark and Himes? Would that get each back?
This is what I hinted out earlier in the week. When you don't operate on a meritocracy and play/start your best players good luck retaining your younger guys.
Especially since it seems like the only thing that ever spurs this athletic department into action is abject embarrassment. This year is not that; last year was. This is exactly the kind of year that makes everyone there give a thumbs-up sign and talk about continuing to compete, or some other such pabulum.